What do we call this
I made a comment in the cuckolding blog that I could never do that. This morning we read the blog on being silly. @Emma implies that flirting counts as poly-friending. We have a couple I’ll call John and Jane Doe who are in their mid-forties that we are very close to. They have no sexual hang-ups and when we get together once or twice a month it gets risqué and fun. We all know all the hard limits and nobody crosses them but soft limits get pushed pretty hard. Unfortunately Jane has been away most of the time for the last 5 or 6 weeks taking care of her sick mother. Haven’t been able to get together and we miss it.
John has had a cage for about three years thanks to Stephie and me. That was one of the two times Stephie played the FLR card but that is another story. Stephie and Jane are very close and talk all the time. Maybe too often for John’s and my good (LOL.)
When we get together we usually have a couple or 3 drinks so rather than drive home the visiting couple spends the night. No swinging, just no drunk driving. I know that Stephie gets an ego boost when John admires and even touches her body. It tells her that even in her 50’s she still looks great to men other than me. I am very okay with that. We play a unique version of “Truth or Dare” which adds to the sexual tension and flirting. Last year on a couple of occasions Jane asked me what I do that makes Stephie’s sex so good. One time she even pushed the hard limits in the truth or dare game to get an answer. That night we broke from the game and actually had a serious talk about our sex life with them and I think it helped them.
Back to the kind of stuff that normally happens. The last time we were together, somehow we got on the subject of girl’s butts and what makes them desirable. The ladies were standing next to each other and we were facing them, all with drink in hand. Suddenly John set his drink down and walked behind them. he lifted the back of Stephie’s skirt and grabbed her butt with one hand and stuffed his other hand down Jane’s slacks and grabbed her tail. He was rubbing and feeling and then he says, “Sorry honey but I think Stephie has the better ass.” Jane then proceeded to lift Stephie’s and her tops. Stephie had a sexy bra on but Jane rarely wears one. Her breasts are not as big as Stephie’s but they are as firm and perky as a teenagers. Jane told me to grab their breasts and see whose were better. She had to tell me twice and Stephie smiled so I did it. Jane said to squeeze them and get the nipples hard. Then she asked me who had the better boobs. I took the fifth amendment and we all laughed. Jane said that meant she won and asked John if he would rather lick Stephie’s ass or suck on Jane’s hard nipples. John hesitated and Jane said, “I think somebody will have their cage on for a while.”
So does this qualify as poly-friending? There is no actual sex involved but it is way more than flirting. Neither Stephie or I consider this cheating or violating our relationship. We would not consider doing it with anybody else. I do enjoy seeing Stephie’s smiles when John toys with her and I think she gets a kick out of my very nervous enjoyment when Jane teases me. Having actual sex with them or anyone else would be crossing the red line. For us, actual sex is so intimate it is saying “you are the one I love.”
I want to expand on what Dave posted here. Really Dave, Jane and John Doe, these are our best friends. You couldn’t think of something more original?
I want to elaborate on the red line. More than twenty five years ago when we had been into chastity for about two years we were watching a movie on TV. It had a sexy girl mostly undressed and I could see Dave was looking at her pretty intently. I asked him if he would like to have sex with her and he said no. I asked him even if I said it was okay with me. He blew me away with what he said next. He told me that we started chastity because he was masturbating when I was on my period and it made me feel like he didn’t need me. That made him realize how special sex and orgasms are. He said that sex was the only thing he could say for certain he would never do with anyone but me. He went on that even something as drastic as risking his life he might do for a total stranger but sex was sacred. Sex is saying you are the one I love and nobody else. This was coming from the man who at that time was so afraid of his emotions he could not express his feelings without me dragging them out of him. I have never forgotten what he said that evening. It probably has a lot to do with why it is so important to me that when he has his orgasm he is inside me during intercourse. I try very hard to make sure our orgasms are synched.
With regard to our play with Jane and John, the first actual “inappropriate” touching happened about four years ago. John was flirting with me and grabbed my boob. The way it happened I actually liked it. I looked over at Dave and he was smiling. I was kind of disappointed that he wasn’t jealous. When we went to bed I asked him about it and he said he was taken back for a second but he saw my smile and that made him smile. I felt much better that he was okay with me enjoying the attention.
The next morning I talked to Jane and made sure she didn’t have a problem with what happened. She was not only okay with it she wanted to know if it would be okay if she teased Dave a little the next time. She said she was sure she could make him very uncomfortable. At this time they did not know about our chastity. I agreed and I warned her if she touched his penis it might feel a little odd and I told her we played with chastity cages and asked her not to say anything about it yet. I explained a little about what we did but no details.
In answer to the question “what do we call this?”, I would say that, yes, it is a form of “poly friending”. You don’t have actual sex with the other couple, but I would say your erotic playfulness goes beyond mere flirtation. It sounds like a fun and sexy relationship.
I am curious about your notion of the “red line” that separates erotic play from “sex”. Would you consider anything short of piv sex not to be sex?
When my wife has had affairs with other men, I have always felt that “sex” starts way before they get to the point of sexual intercourse. My wife has never just hopped into the sack with a near stranger because she needs to feel there is a relationship in order to enjoy bedroom activities, so she needs to date a guy for a while to decide how far she wants to go. She always tells me how her dates go, what they do, and how she feels about it. That sharing is wonderfully exciting for both of us. There are certain milestones that are always sexy: first kiss, first time he touches her bottom and breasts, first time he touches her pussy through her clothes, first time he puts his hand down her panties, first time she touches his penis through his pants, first time she sees and touches him unzipped, first time they see one another partially naked, and maybe the first time they have oral sex. The first time they have piv sex is the consummation of the affair, I suppose, but when (or if) it reaches that point, it feels like the conclusion of a gradual exciting process that began on the first date, not like the crossing of a red line. I recall that the first time she had piv sex with another man, the piv aspect did feel like the crossing of a momentous boundary, but that boundary no longer seems as momentous.
I rarely have piv sex with my wife nowadays because I have trouble maintaining a decent erection. Consequently, I have come to think of cunnilingus, not intercourse, as the most intimate form of sexual contact. The way the senses are flooded with the scent and taste of her during cunnilingus makes me feel as deeply connected to her as it is possible to be. I almost feel more jealous if another man goes down on her than if he has intercourse with her because going down on her is MY thing, and I wonder if he loves doing it as much as I do. And for some reason the thought of her touching another man sexually with her hand drives me crazy. Blow jobs loom large in my imagination too. She never goes down on me because that feels contrary to the the D/s nature of our marriage. But when another man goes down on her, she feels that it is fair to reciprocate.
Bottom line: to me sex is so much more than just sexual intercourse, and it is all powerful. And I feel that the relationship you two have with that other couple is wonderfully erotic, even if you take it no further. The erotic playfulness of it must enhance the excitement of the sex you have with one another.
You made me realize how many nuances there can be in sex and a sexual relationship. I guess everyone’s definition of when it stops being making out or fooling around or flirtation and actually becomes sex is different.
As for our “Red Line” we know what it is at this moment but God only knows if that will change. I really hope it never does. We defined it last year when Jane pushed the hard limit in our game of truth or dare. For my truth I had to describe in full detail exactly how I made love to Stephie that made Stephie so happy. As I say the ladies talk to each other way too much for John’s and my good. The dare was I had to spend the night with her with my cage on and make love to her the way I do with Stephie so she could teach John. Normally we don’t get to see the dare till we turn down the truth. On this one Jane made sure I knew the options.
The game came to a halt and the four of us talked and we made Jane realize how much Stephie had to do with the quality of our love making each and every time. We talked probably for an hour or so. Afterwards Jane asked me if I would have been willing to choose the dare. We all talked a long time about what the actual hard limit was. We finally all agreed that the limit was giving someone other than your spouse an orgasm. It didn’t matter if it was PIV, oral, or masturbation. A second hard limit was no sexual type of activity without the 4 of us all together. No alone time in a sexually charged atmosphere. So to answer your question that is our red line.
Nudity, touching of all areas and even kissing or making out as long as we are all together and playing are all on the table. We also all agreed that as we experimented with these things we would assess everyone’s comfort level because these things allowed for more than our past play up till then. As I said in the original post we have started to push the soft limits pretty hard.
I hope I also made it clear that we would never do any of this with any other couple.
I just read Dave’s post from last night and you might get the impression that we go further than we actually do with Jane and John. (still can’t get over those lame names he picked.)
To start we do not play truth or dare, which is when the kinkiest stuff happens, every time we get together. Sometimes we watch a movie or just talk or play cards.
Hard limits also include no PIV or oral sex even if it doesn’t result in orgasm. Masturbating of the gentiles with no orgasm was not ruled out but no one has tried that to date.
As for kissing and making out, that has been limited so far to fun and playful. I believe we would all be uncomfortable if the kissing became passionate.
We all agree that this is to be about fun and exciting and a little about embarrassing. None of us want to jeopardize our actual relationships with our mate by doing things that would create a “love” bond with the wrong partner.
Are we walking a fuzzy line? Probably, but I think we all have the same goals for our fun and the same values for our relationships.
@stephsdave That is a really hot game you and Steph are playing with John and Jane! I’m jealous. 😉
The red line you have drawn between erotic play and sex—giving anyone other than one’s spouse an orgasm—makes sense. It has the virtue of clarity. And I can see the wisdom of your rule that any inter couple erotic play has to be in the presence of all four of you. But in my mind, what you are doing comes really close to polyamory because drawing a distinction between sex resulting in orgasm and sex with orgasm denial is somewhat arbitrary. Those of us who have had the experience of making love to our wives without being allowed to cum know what a deeply intimate bond that creates. So I can just imagine the power of the four way sexual energy when the four of you talk about sex, with Jane teasing and denying you and Steph teasing and denying John, with the teasing involving nudity or partial nudity plus sexual touching. By the end of an evening like that, all four of you would be really horny, I imagine. Then you and Steph go to your room to make love, and John and Jane do the same. Strictly speaking, that is monogamous sex. But let’s face it, all of your orgasms will have been enhanced by the sexy game you played with the other couple. So in my mind you and Steph have a polyamorous relationship with the other couple. Your statement that you would never do such things with any other couple seems to confirm that you feel the same way: you and Steph have a special erotic relationship with Jane and John. Isn’t that a form of polyamory?
@steph You are definitely walking a fuzzy line, but why shouldn’t you? The four of you are having some sexy fun that spices up the sex lives of both couples, while respecting shared values all four of you have agreed upon. It doesn’t get better than that.
Dave definitely opened a can of worms when he started this topic. I can’t seem to get it out of my head. Partly because I miss our get togethers and partly because it is a can of worms. I’ve talked to Jane regularly on the phone and we managed to get together for lunch a couple times when she was back in town We talked Sunday and she was pretty down. Her mother’s cancer is winning and it sounds like weeks at best from what Jane said. Enough of the downer.
I keep thinking about how much we enjoy the craziness with Jane and John. It didn’t start out this way. We have been friends for longer than I care to remember. It was a slow evolution. First there were innuendos and then innocent flirting. We have an amazing trust amongst us. Then as I said about four years ago the first actual touching. We never had any rules as such till last year when Jane, mostly inadvertently, forced us to look at where we were going.
I really enjoy the attention from John. In my youth and even in college I was all about my looks and being the sexiest. Now, with everything I have in my life including a fantastic husband I still have a bit of that shallowness left in me. I smile big time when a man turns back to give me a second look. If Dave is with me he will smile too. It is partly because he loves to see me smile but I think it gives him an ego boost too. He likes knowing that other men think his woman is hot. I love that feeling when John, who is good looking and has a beautiful, sexy wife, looks at me like he wants to take me to bed. And then he touches me in a sexy way and I feel desired. Dave lets me know it every day but somehow this is different. Dave is okay with this and actually smiles while we play. I get a kick out of Jane’s teasing and toying with Dave. He still gets a little nervous and embarrassed but I can tell he is liking it. If he was just embarrassed and uncomfortable I would not let it go on.
The ”red line” is and always will be very important to all of us. I can only describe it as the point where play ends and emotional attachment begins. I know @Emma describes her relationship with Kevin as passion and love and with Andrew it was about lust, but she still had some emotional attachment to Andrew. That would be a problem for Dave and me. For all of us. Even spouse swapping with the four of us would cross that line of emotional attachment, being such an intimate act. I can’t imagine how bad I would feel about Dave making love to another woman. Emma never did answer the question about how she would feel if Kevin said he needed something more either emotionally or to light his sexual fire and wanted to have a second woman. What if he felt he needed to orgasm during intercourse. This is a hard limit “no” for Emma. Would she be able to allow him to do so for his Sunday release, instead of him just masturbating, with a submissive woman so he could feel strong? Would Emma feel the comperssion that he feels for her? This is obviously very hypothetical and probably none of my business. I hope she ( or anyone else) doesn’t take this personally or as judging. My point is that the way Dave and I see our relationship and love is very different from the way Emma and Kevin see theirs in spite of the fact that in both cases it is all about the relationship. We share the same goal. It is just our red lines are in different places. Many couples would see Dave and myself and our friends as sinners.
I seem to be just babbling now so I will shut up. Its just that once this subject got back in my mind I can’t get rid of it and I long for the day when we can get back together with Jane and John. Is that so bad?
@steph I can’t speak for Emma, but the pointed questions you put to her make it sound as though you feel a need to justify feeling differently about extramarital sex than she does. I don’t think you do. Neither does she.
You imply that it would be hypocritical if Emma was unwilling to allow Kevin the freedom to have sex with other women or to have orgasms whenever he wants. In other words, you feel it is unfair that she enjoys sexual privileges denied to him. I can’t speak for Kevin, but as a cuckold myself, I can imagine him being less concerned about fairness than you are. If a man consents to having his penis locked up so his partner can control his access to orgasms, fairness and equality might not be things he is concerned with. Enforced chastity is a form of erotic power exchange—a pretty extreme form, in my mind. A man who consents to it is probably turned on by the sexual inequality (and unfairness) it entails. Cuckolding is a similar form of erotic power exchange. The cuckold husband knows that most people would see the sexual inequality in his marriage as “unfair“, and maybe humiliating. It IS unfair. But for some of us guys with a cuckolding kink, the unfairness is part of the sexual thrill. Now, I can’t say whether Kevin feels the same way I do about being cuckolded, but if he does there would be nothing hypocritical about Emma enjoying sexual privileges she denies to him. Have you never enjoyed having Dave go down on you while denying him an orgasm? That involves the same “unfair” power dynamic as cuckolding, don’t you think?
Steph, I find the rather complicated power dynamic among you and David and John and Jane fascinating. It seems more egalitarian than Emma’s arrangement with Kevin, but there is still a femdom feel to it. The way John relates to you in front of David has a cuckolding vibe, even if you don’t allow John to go all the way. Since Jane also interacts sexually with David, the arrangement seems somewhat egalitarian, but whereas John seems like an alpha male in his interactions with you, Jane seems to be in a position of dominance over David, teasing him in a way that is pleasantly embarrassing. You say that if Jane’s teasing became uncomfortably embarrassing for David, you would intervene to protect him. That implies that you are aware of a dominant/submissive vibe to Jane’s interactions with David. Does that seem accurate, or am I reading too much into your situation?
Stephie is out of town helping with Jane's mother and should be back by the weekend. I am not going to even try to answer these questions for her. Actually I agree with her. I miss those Saturday nights with them, even miss Jane.LOL
Stephie called me early this afternoon. Jane's mother passed. Stephie called John who is on his way there, actually probably there by now, and she called the funeral home. Stephie is going to stay till sometime tomorrow. She will make them supper tonight and breakfast tomorrow. She will finish up the little things like final laundry and dishes while Jane makes arrangements and stuff that have to be done. Then Stephie said she will make them some supper that they just have to heat up and come home late tomorrow afternoon.
Sorry about not getting back to you but I have been otherwise occupied. I’ll try to address all the points you raised.
You are probably a little right in why I compare my relationship to Emma’s. With her blogs she is the guide for this site. With regard to “fair,” fair never means equal or the same and I know that totally fair probably doesn’t exist in any relationship. The fact that I am in charge and make the rules does not make Dave a second class citizen in our relationship. His happiness is very important. I never want him to feel like he had to settle for a less fulfilling life because he fell in love with me. I want him to feel like falling in love with me was the best thing that ever happened to him. I see him being as happy as I am as being about fairness. Though Emma and I share the same goal of a strong loving relationship, the way we go about it is so different. I sometimes wonder if I actually belong here because my view of FLR is not at all about dominance. Our chastity is not at all about denial and making him frustrated so I’ll get more attention. Rather it is about scheduling his orgasms to make them better. I get my attention because he loves me, not because he is frustrated. I don’t think that fits with what any other couples in FLR/chastity do. Dave has trouble relating to many of the men here and doesn’t understand why they are so happy with their situation. For example we were looking at some of Emma’s blogs one night before I went to stay with Jane. We saw in one blog that on Sundays after Kevin gives PIV to Emma without an orgasm for him he has to kneel across from her and masturbate while she pleasures herself in front of him. Dave said that is so demeaning. Why would he do that? I told him that Kevin is very submissive to Emma and he may see it differently. Dave said, “But she doesn’t even touch him. How is he supposed to feel loved when he has his orgasm? Men need to feel loved just as much as women! I told him he would have to ask Kevin to get that answer. Dave was truly concerned about what he saw as Kevin being degraded and not being shown any love in order to have an orgasm. I’m sure Kevin doesn’t feel that way at all. I don’t think Dave understands complete submission. So yes, even as vanilla as this site is, I wonder if other members wonder what we are doing here.
Dave and I do not see ourselves as Dominatrix and sub at all. I call it a partnership. He calls us teammates and I am the quarterback. I may call the plays and have the final say but we work together to make the relationship work. I rarely (only twice plus one time when I pulled it back) have played the FLR card as Dave now calls it. Usually I push and nudge and gently lead him to where we need to be. Sort of like the expression, “The difference between rape and seduction is salesmanship." That saying could apply to leading versus dominating. What I have done seems to have worked. I am the center of Dave’s world and he, not the power, is the center of mine. I have to admit I do get a big ego boost knowing I led us to where we are. I changed an awkward geek who was afraid of women into a loving, mostly confident husband.
I have unwritten guidelines for leading our relationship. The first and most important is, “I will never try to make me more by making him less.” The corollary is, “I will try to make us both more than either of us could be alone.” My second guideline is that what is good for the relationship is the number one priority. After those things comes getting everything we both need. Next is getting everything I want. Finally making sure that Dave has everything he wants that does not interfere with making the relationship better or with my wants. (Like all women I am a little narcissistic and put my wants ahead of Dave’s wants.)
Our chastity as I said is very different from most. Its purpose is to make Dave’s orgasms as good and intense as possible. By spreading them out and letting me control the love making on the nights he is to have a release our love making and both our orgasms are over the top. A win-win for all the priorities. Dave sacrifices quantity but we both come out ahead on the quality. Dave does not feel denied because he feels like he wins too. We both get wonderful loving on the nights between his releases. Back to fairness for a moment. I regularly get lots of great orgasms and Dave gets a few great orgasms. So how is this fair. It is fair because the alternative is we both could get lots of mediocre orgasms and we wouldn’t get that special feeling of being loved all the time that we share now. What we do is not equal but it is as fair as male biology permits.
As for the dynamic with Jane and John, I really don’t know what it is exactly. John and I have pretty much the same level of kink and just enjoy teasing each other and pushing the soft limits. We have fun and at the same time, as you say, get each other turned on. Jane is what you might call the ring leader. She is more freewheeling with the kink than any of us and she loves making Dave squirm Dave isn’t really submissive to her but she knows how to push his buttons and keep him out of his comfort zone. I don’t know if it is dominance or just a slight sadistic streak Jane has. Dave has become much more confident than years ago and I think his play with Jane and John has actually helped. But he still looks to me for “permission” when limits get pushed.
I think I hit all your points here, HappyCuckold, so I’ll stop now.
I get my attention because he loves me, not because he is frustrated. I don’t think that fits with what any other couples in FLR/chastity do.
That is exactly how our marriage works. I see nothing wrong with this.
I want to obey my wife, completely, perfectly. I want her to decide whatever it is that she chooses to decide. I want her to feel loved and appreciated. She's not torturing me into this; I am being lovingly led.
There is frustration. But it comes after the orgasm, once my body starts to pump major volumes of my sex drive chemicals, but before she has been able to take control of my mind using those same chemicals as her magical lever. I hate that frustration, and I cannot wait for her magic to take hold of my mind.
And then I am in pure ecstasy, pure nirvana. Where I belong. Hers, completely.
@steph No need to apologize for not responding sooner. You have been doing what you needed to do for a friend. Thanks for the detailed response. It all makes sense. The way you have differentiated your form of FLR from Emma’s form of FLR proves the point that there isn’t a one-size-fits-all FLR. For what it’s worth, I find Emma’s FLR with Kevin hot, and I also find your FLR with David hot. I don’t agree with you that your type of FLR is so different from other people’s that you don’t fit in here.
You say that your form “is not at all about dominance.” I find that claim fascinating because, as a submissive man, I find that you have a very dominant vibe. If I understand your point, you don’t see your FLR as being about domination and submission because you are just as concerned about David’s sexual fulfillment as your own. I see your point, but I would question whether you are really any different than Emma—or my own wife—in that way. I don’t think any relationship, whether kinky or vanilla, can survive unless the needs of both partners are being sufficiently met. For those of us in consensual D/s relationships, inequality is satisfying and exciting for both partners.
You say, “I have to admit I do get a big ego boost knowing I led us to where we are. I changed an awkward geek who was afraid of women into a loving, mostly confident husband.” Right there, you have put your finger on a delicious D/s power dynamic that informs your relationship with David. You have said elsewhere that you had quite a lot of sexual experience before you got married. But you describe David as “an awkward geek who was afraid of women” before you took him in hand. In my mind, that inequality of sexual experience sets up a wonderfully erotic power dynamic. Under the old patriarchal way of thinking, virtuous women were supposed to be virgins until marriage, while men were allowed to “sew their wild oats”. Your situation with David is a reversal of the old patriarchal way. You don’t cuckold David now that you are married, but when you engage in erotic play with John, you have said yourself that you feel sexy because it reminds you of your pre-marital sexual experiences. Unlike you, David hasn’t had experience with other partners, and based on your commitment to be monogamous, he never will. In my mind, that inequality of sexual experience has a cuckold vibe. But that’s just me.
Also, you say quite explicitly that you have been a teacher to David in the bedroom. That has a D/s vibe I know well. In my youth, I was “an awkward geek” like David, and I lost my virginity with a woman who had a great deal of sexual experience. She was my sexual teacher the way you have been David’s sexual teacher. We didn’t have a formal FLR—I wasn’t even aware of the concept back then—but in retrospect I can see that she was sexually dominant because of her superior sexual experience.
If David sees Emma’s treatment of Kevin as “demeaning”, you obviously have to take his feelings into account. But I would point out that David submits to you in a way that lots of other people would find demeaning. I mean, locking David’s penis in a cage , thereby claiming the power to “schedule his orgasms” is a deeply intimate form of domination. You may not see it that way, but many people would. You say your use of enforced chastity is different because you are doing it for David’s benefit as much as your own, limiting the quantity of his orgasms to increase the intensity of the ones he has. But I think most men who ask their partners to control and limit their orgasms get similar benefits, either in the form of stronger orgasms or extended periods of heightened arousal.
As to the specific incident David found “demeaning”, Kevin’s being made to masturbate in front of Emma, I would say that there is nothing inherently demeaning about that. You say that you limit David’s orgasms to enable him to experience stronger orgasms. Well, I can tell you that, for some of us guys, being made to masturbate in front of our wives can result in mind blowing orgasms. Part of the thrill, I think, is that for many of us guys, masturbation felt like a shameful secret while we were growing up. There is also a sense that masturbation is something that boys do, whereas “real men” get their orgasms from piv sex. Thus, when my wife makes me masturbate in front of her, instead of allowing me to cum inside her “like a real man”, my feelings of shame and vulnerability are intensely erotic. It doesn’t make me feel unloved, as David imagines it would. But we are all wired differently.
Final point. You say you rarely “play the FLR card”, that you prefer to persuade rather than dominate David. That’s fine. I get that you prefer to lead through soft power. But the fact that you have played the FLR card on a couple of occasions shows that you and David both know that you have that option. I would suggest that just being aware of that contributes to a D/s vibe.